'AITA for taking my biological nieces on days out and excluding my adopted nephew?' UPDATED 2X

"AITA for taking my biological nieces on days out and excluding my adopted nephew?"

I (42F) have two nieces Flo (14F), Ivy (11F) and a nephew Ryan (10M) through my bro Tom (46M) and SIL Kate (45F). Flo and Ivy are biologically theirs and they adopted Ryan two years ago after fostering him for three years. I live locally to them, we are super close usually and have my own daughter Ava (12F) who my nieces are close to.

Before foster care, Ryan’s life was awful and he has some behavioural and developmental issues. He struggles to sit through long things such as shows quietly, whether it be in the theatre or the girls’ plays/ recitals so the girls rarely have both parents supporting them.

His behaviour is sometimes pretty unpredictable and he sometimes has pretty loud and physical meltdowns so they have to be careful where they take him. As such whenever me/hubby take Ava to the theatre or other activities which Ryan wouldn’t like, we bring the girls along too. Sometimes Tom and Kate pay for them, sometimes we do.

We have never bought Ryan out without his parents and sisters because he has really different interests to the girls, I don’t feel confident handling his behaviour and Flo and Ivy have expressed that they really value the Ryan-free time. I’ve made extra effort to be there since then; Ryan’s a great kid but he needs a lot of attention and my nieces need people who are 100% in their corner.

Anyways, I am taking the girls to a Christmas theme park in London on Friday. It’s quite an expensive one (UK readers, if you know, you know) and I have the joy of footing the bill for all three. On Sunday, I got a call from Kate asking if Ryan could come with us on Friday. He had seen adverts and heard the girls talking about it, and wants to go. She offered to pay for whatever he did.

I told Kate no as I didn’t know what he was like in crowds, she said he went two years ago and loved it, and his sisters were there to help him if he was struggling. I said that wasn’t fair on them, I booked it as a girl’s trip and it is supposed to be a treat and I don’t want it getting cut short and I don’t feel comfortable parentifying the girls.

I know Tom’s taking Ryan to London next week so told Kate to book tickets on that day, but by that point she wasn’t listening. She criticised me for insinuating siblings caring for eachother was parentifying me, and accused me of being ableist as Ryan can’t help his conditions and shouldn’t be excluded, as well has being biased against the kid I’m not related to.

It got very fiery and ended with me saying read the room, it’s a girls day and her hanging up. Anyways, she went to the girls and said either they ask me for Ryan to come or they can’t go.

Flo texted me begging to not let him come and asking if they can still join us, while Ivy is more torn up as she doesn’t want her brother to be left out but also doesn’t want to risk her day being ruined. My mother, Tom and sister have contacted me saying I should bring Ryan as to not show favourites and to be inclusive. Husband is on my side. AITA?

Not long after posting, OP shared a small update.

EDIT to answer a few FAQs:

- Tom, Kate and my husband are all working the day of the trip. I took PTO and Kate and Tom had childcare arranged.

- I do spend quality time with Ryan. We live a 15 min walk away so go to their house often. Me, Ryan and Tom if he's around build a lot of Lego as it's a shared hobby and I get him a new set every birthday and Christmas, and it's a running joke as he spends a lot of time guessing which one.

I like this quality time as it's accessible and his parents are around. I just book days out around my daughter's interests, which happen to be the exact opposite of his. She's a really artsy girly girl who likes the theatre, shopping, museums, movie nights and slumber parties while he's into lego, video games and anything martial arts.

The internet shared a plethora of responses.

jigsawandroses wrote:

NTA. You’re right - Flo and Ivy need someone in their corner and are lucky to have an aunt who takes them to do stuff their brother can not. Are their parents usually not in their corner? And are they parentified?

OP responded:

Their parents are in their corners a lot, when it comes to hobbies and school etc but Ryan is a tricky topic. I couldn't mention due to the character limit but there's been a few times where he has lashed out at them during outbursts and they have mentioned it to their parents, who basically tell them to be understanding as he can't help it and had a rough childhood.

I do get that and he is a great kid for the most part, just hard to predict and hard to calm down. In terms of parentifying, they are usually good at not putting it on the girls and the kids are close in age. Flo refuses to babysit him alone as he is nearly her height and probably stronger and the one time they tried, she walked him to mine.

There were a few clashes with the school when Ivy was there as Kate tried to insist that Ivy be bought in to comfort him if he was really inconsolable and her and Tom couldn't be there and the school refused. She's now in secondary and he's still in primary so wonder what it will be like next year when he goes to their school.

Dramatic_Attempt4318 wrote:

OP - I really admire what you do for Flo and Ivy, and you are right in that they need people in their corner. The time they have to engage in their own interests without any external pressures is really valuable.

However: ESH. You have completely omitted your nephew from any planning you've done, based on what you've said. You've never done anything solo with Ryan. Your favoritism is pretty impossible to ignore, and it's pretty certain he's picked up on it.

Your sister is horning in on preexisting plans. That's not ok. She's putting her daughters in the middle. That is not ok. It is okay to do solo trips with the kids. But you absolutely have left Ryan hanging out to dry which is why this is ESH. I do not agree with your sister picking this event as her hill to die on, but I think you and she should have discussed long ago how to mimic the "girls' days out" with Ryan.

Starting small so you can assess whether or not you can manage his behaviour, and then playing within the boundaries where you are comfortable - but as you seem thoughtful, considerate, and observant, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to figure out some outings for you and Ryan.

This specific outing sounds like it's big, and it's possibly got a lot of risky factors for Ryan so I think it's reasonable to not be comfortable with this being your first outing with him without his parents. But I do think you need to accept that you've been showing flagrant favoritism to the girls and should step up & be better, to be more equitable in your treatment of all three kids.

lawfox32 wrote:

NTA. I notice that Kate didn't offer to have her or Tom come with and make sure Ryan does okay, which would have allayed all of your concerns. Also, you're paying, so it's rude for her to ask you to pay for, and watch, another child.

It doesn't sound like Kate has expressed an issue with you taking the girls and not Ryan before, so it's not fair for her to lay down ultimatums now, for an event that she already agreed to and that was already planned, and it was very inappropriate for her to tell her daughters that they have to ask you if Ryan can come or they can't go.

Either she can say no to them going without him, or let them go, but she shouldn't put her kids in the middle like that.

OP responded:

Character count didn't let me put it in but they both work on Fridays, so neither of them work. Think he's due to go to my sister's house that day but not 100% sure.

Ragenap wrote:

INFO: Do you ever take just Ryan out without the girls? Or do you just take the girls out without Ryan?

OP responded:

No not really admittedly. Both me and my husband work full time, so we want to spend our time off with our daughter as much as possible doing things she loves. It often really is theatre, movie nights, sleepovers, shopping trips and spa sessions - she's a real girly girl. As she's an only child she really loves when her cousins are there too.

On the cross side, mine and Tom's sister (41F) has two boys who are 10 and 8 so invites him to do stuff with them sometimes which the girls wouldn't like. However, they live a bit further out so invites are a bit sparser but I know Tom and Kate use the time the girls are with me to spend quality time with him and invite his mates round for playdates.

When I see Ryan (which is a lot as me and my brother live a 15 min walk from eachother) I make sure to do lots of 1:1 things in the house. He loves Lego, which I do too so we make a lot of that together, but our quality time is mainly in the house rather than trips out.

Rude_Egg_6204 wrote:

NTA. My wife has a similar issue. Our kids are grown up so she takes her niece out as she is well behaved and enjoys doing girly things. There are also two nephews to another family member, wife refuses to take them out. They are complete little s--ts that won't stop misbehaving. Life is too short to take on extra s--t.

Less than a day later, OP shared a big update.

Thank you to everyone who commented - currently on a break at work so gonna quickly update. S--t has hit the fan basically. Removed the previous update as I was too sleep deprived to do the title properly. Your comments made me realise that I am right to not bring Ryan.

It's not safe with just me, and especially after reading comments from people who have special needs children/ siblings who have had to pull all children out of days out as there hasn't been enough adults, I'm not doing that.

The girls also deserve to do the things that they want. I will also make a conscious effort to do stuff with Ryan. I'm going to suggest to Tom that me and him take him to Legoland when it reopens in the Spring.

A recap of characters: me (42f), my daughter Ava (12F), my brother Tom (46M), his wife Kate (45F), and their kids Flo (14F), Ivy (11F) and Ryan (10M). The new players are my husband Ben (43M), mine and Tom's sister Mia (40F) and my mum (70F), who we will just call mum. Because of the character limit, I couldn't elaborate on a few things. I do spend quality time with Ryan, just don't take him on days out.

We both love Legos, which Ava doesn't, so it's great to have someone to bond with over that and as we live a 15 minute walk alway we see eachother quite often, it's usually at their house as it's easier shepherding one kid rather than three. Sometimes he'll pick to hang with the girls, where they will play an activity they all enjoy like MarioKart but most of the time he'll pick to hang with me.

He is one of those kids who thrives hanging with adults than other children, which is why his parents endorsed the girls days as it meant they get 2:1 time with him. He gets on with his sisters as they are both super calm and kind girls, but most of his meltdowns arise from confrontation with other kids or his sisters wanting to do something that he doesn't like.

Some examples include Flo playing music in her room or them picking a movie he doesn't want - obviously when they do a vote the girls' pick usually wins as there's two of them, and he gets stressed out a lot by other kids at school. Kate and Tom encourage the girls to be empathetic and let him have his way, but I think this means the girls sometimes lose out.

He's got some friends at school who he has frequent playdates with, especially when the girls are out the house, and he's friends with Mia's two sons who are 10 and 8, and sometimes gets invites to go to laser tag with them, but they live slightly further away and as it's on weekends Tom or Kate are always there as they have to take him.

Back to the story. Ben walked Ava to school today, and Flo and Ivy go to the same school (in the UK, the first year of secondary school is when the kid is 11/12, so Ryan is at primary school still, joining the girls next September). Flo was waiting by the gates (the girls walk themselves) and asked to talk with him after Ava went in.

She basically said that she loves her brother but really values having days out with me, Tom and Ava because it's calmer and when they went Winter Wonderland two years ago, he was chill for about four hours but they ended up leaving earlier than planned as he was starting to get cranky with all the queues and they didn't want to risk meltdowns there.

As they started with the rides that he wanted, they had only done one or two that the girls wanted and didn't do the iceskating which is what she really wanted to do.

She also mentioned when the family went to a restaurant recently, Ryan threw a fit as the food was taking too long and he was hungry. Tom took him home and while the girls were trying to chat to Kate, she was too busy on her phone trying to message Tom to see if Ryan was okay.

I also have noticed that the girls are at my house a lot lately. As they are responsible for walking themselves home, they will just go to mine to do homework as it's empty otherwise until I get home at 5.30. Ivy and Ava are in the same class so do homework together.

Flo will often chat a lot to me and Ben, often about gossip, what happened at school. I thought nothing of it, but now I wonder if she even has those chats with her parents. Where Flo and Ava are both pretty headstrong and confident, Ivy is sensitive, and I think her mum saying she's excluding her brother really gets to her. Ben relayed this to me and I contacted Tom telling him we need to meet.

He works long hours but agreed to swing by mine after work to hash the issues out. While Kate is lovely she thinks with her heart, while I think Tom is more levelheaded. At the minute he's on the bring Ryan team, but I think when I lay out why that is not possible (the lack of other adult/ the girl's feelings / the length of time we are planning on staying) I am hoping he sees the light.

This morning I also got texts from my mum and Mia, both on Kate's side. My mum has had a past of kind of favouring her son over her daughters, and she was saying that Tom was valiant adopting Ryan and it was my duty as the local family member to make sure that he was accepted as much as possible.

To those who said, send her along, I wish lol but also found out she and my dad booked a last min flight to get some Winter sun for a few days. Mia was more levelled but still on their side saying I needed to keep the peace as we don't want a scrap just before Christmas, but when I mentioned she organised things without the girls she got quiet.

I also found out she is also the designated Ryan babysitter for that day so think she might be trying to pawn him off on me so she doesn't have to come over - she lives a 45 min drive away and her and her kids are driving down to hang with Ryan in his house and in the local area as Kate works in our town so is close by if there is an emergency.

I was thinking about asking my sister if her and the boys wanted to come, but as her boys are younger I would be scared of the girls being overshadowed and I'm not sure we can manage 6 kids between the two of us at Winter Wonderland. Her youngest is also not the height requirement for a lot of the rides the girls want to do as he's pretty short for his age.

It also takes away from the girls' day. They've really talked a lot about it and I don't want them feeling awkward about doing something because Ryan doesn't want to. Maybe we can come again next year when we have all six parents available so more flexibility but for now, I think it's safest going with the girls only.

I am slightly concerned that with the way Kate is behaving she might tell Mia not to come and drop all three at mine on Friday, but Ben (WFH) says he will babysit if need be. Ryan really likes him, and I think he would prefer playing on Ben's PS5 to the theme park anyways.

I don't want it to come to that as it's cruel to tell the kid he can't come when he's at my door but wouldn't know what else to do. I am pretty nervous about how my brother will react, especially to Flo talking to Ben as I really don't want a fight or her to get in trouble. I'll mention what she said but not anything where I can see it starting a fight.

Ben told her to speak to her parents too so that may be happening, but I think it would just be her as Ivy is very timid and doesn't want to make her parents sad. I don't want to be cut off from my nieces as I love them a lot and know they love their cousin so really want to resolve this. Any advice would be appreciated.

The internet kept the comments rolling in.

library_wench wrote:

I feel like the way to approach this for everyone is with the idea of equity, not equality. You want to take the girls to events you/they will all enjoy. These events are not best for Ryan because he isn’t great with patience/standing in line/long days. So, you’ll take him out to LegoLand, which is his kinda thing, and not the girls’ kinda thing.

Different things for different people—equity not equality. Also, in a big but close-knit family, there’s nothing wrong with doing things in different combinations of people. We do that in my family all the time: not everyone has to be included in everything because doing things in different group combos allows for growth of individual relationships.

Antique_Jello4950 wrote:

The Parents and Family involved are massive AH. Ryan is going to be a monster in the coming years bc everyone keeps playacting him instead of actually parenting him.

The fact the Mia is trying to Pawn him off and the Grandparents are all of a sudden going on a "minication" proves they THEY don't want to deal with him but rather help him understand that he can always go that its okay to miss out they are teaching him that if he whines and screams a lot he'll eventually get way.

Then the poor daughter can't even spend time with their Parents without Tantrums and Chaos and that's simply not fair.

Unfortunately OP can't just take the girls and just go without being arrested and charged. Just stay as much as you can in their lives until they both leave for College. Show them that you, Hubby, and cousin are with them no matter what happens after this display of Entitlement.

meadowlark227 wrote:

It sounds, genuinely, like everyone really loves each other. But, just because there's that love, it doesn't mean that communication will always be easy. It'd be great if the grownups had a family meeting, without the kids, to make plans for the upcoming year where there's equal all-family time, and equal individual small-units time, so that kids get their own special attention and also get time together.

ETA: This currently situation is of course really sticky, but it's only sticky because everyone loves each other AND, folks want to have their own special time.

If you can approach the conversation that way (with understanding and excitement to make different plans, special plans with Ryan in the near future) with you sister, hopefully it'll go easier. It's not that anyone wants to leave anyone out, it's that sometimes it's just great and fun to have smaller units!